Rolf-Dieter Krause is the Brussels correspondent of the German ARD. Age 64, he generally comes across as a balanced and experienced person who has seen a lot of things in his life. Yesterday, he participated in the "Hart-aber-fair" show of ARD. He was asked by the moderator if he could, if he made a great effort, still have some understanding for the Greek government. Below is his reply:
I have no understanding (sympathy) for them. You know, there is one point from which I will not depart: politics must serve the people! But what this government has carried on over the last months serves those poor Greeks who now have to bleed not in the slightest way. And that upsets me in a way that I truly find it difficult to control myself.
This government is doing nothing for their people! That doesn’t begin with them, though. Why is it only in Greece that the programs have not worked? To answer that, one really has to go back a long way. In a way, all are to blame. The Social Democrat Papandreou at least made Greece honest when he admitted the falsifying of statistics and that his budget deficit was much larger than previously reported. For that honesty we have not treated him very nicely. Mr. Samaras, the Christian Democrat, first refused, at a time when a lot could still have been rescued, to form a national unity government. Europe’s Christian Democrats literally begged him to do so but they couldn’t force him. Even Samaras only implemented reforms when pressured from abroad. This issue of ‘ownership’ which is often mentioned, i. e. that a government acts on its own behalf instead of putting all the blame on outside parties, never struck roots in Greece. Samaras cut expenses. He rejected the Troika’s calls for greater social balance. He said that that was his responsibility. He told the Troika: “You get your numbers. How I achieve them is my decision”. Mr. Samaras rejected innumerable suggestions and Europe’s Christian Democrats let him act freely.
And now these fellows from SYRIZA come on stage and start playing games with Europe and give the Europeans the runaround. And they indeed lead the Europeans a dance like a bear with a ring through its nose in a circus arena. I assure you that in this last proposal to Greece, there are points which the Bundestag will only approve with the fist in its pocket, if it ever does approve it. Particularly the CDU/CSU. There are now concessions which CDU/CSU never wanted to make. And I could not fathom that they would be so dumb as to not accept it. But they interrupted the negotiations. Right in the middle of them. They had been on the home stretch. The other Finance Ministers decided nothing. The Greek delegation received a call or an SMS from Athens and that was the end of it. They couldn’t even tell their partners why they had to stop negotiating.
And you know, anyone who acts like that when, at the same time, there are truly humanitarian crises in his country, is unbelievably irresponsible and should be sent to the devil. Yes! But the Greeks are the ones who have to do that!
I have no understanding (sympathy) for them. You know, there is one point from which I will not depart: politics must serve the people! But what this government has carried on over the last months serves those poor Greeks who now have to bleed not in the slightest way. And that upsets me in a way that I truly find it difficult to control myself.
This government is doing nothing for their people! That doesn’t begin with them, though. Why is it only in Greece that the programs have not worked? To answer that, one really has to go back a long way. In a way, all are to blame. The Social Democrat Papandreou at least made Greece honest when he admitted the falsifying of statistics and that his budget deficit was much larger than previously reported. For that honesty we have not treated him very nicely. Mr. Samaras, the Christian Democrat, first refused, at a time when a lot could still have been rescued, to form a national unity government. Europe’s Christian Democrats literally begged him to do so but they couldn’t force him. Even Samaras only implemented reforms when pressured from abroad. This issue of ‘ownership’ which is often mentioned, i. e. that a government acts on its own behalf instead of putting all the blame on outside parties, never struck roots in Greece. Samaras cut expenses. He rejected the Troika’s calls for greater social balance. He said that that was his responsibility. He told the Troika: “You get your numbers. How I achieve them is my decision”. Mr. Samaras rejected innumerable suggestions and Europe’s Christian Democrats let him act freely.
And now these fellows from SYRIZA come on stage and start playing games with Europe and give the Europeans the runaround. And they indeed lead the Europeans a dance like a bear with a ring through its nose in a circus arena. I assure you that in this last proposal to Greece, there are points which the Bundestag will only approve with the fist in its pocket, if it ever does approve it. Particularly the CDU/CSU. There are now concessions which CDU/CSU never wanted to make. And I could not fathom that they would be so dumb as to not accept it. But they interrupted the negotiations. Right in the middle of them. They had been on the home stretch. The other Finance Ministers decided nothing. The Greek delegation received a call or an SMS from Athens and that was the end of it. They couldn’t even tell their partners why they had to stop negotiating.
And you know, anyone who acts like that when, at the same time, there are truly humanitarian crises in his country, is unbelievably irresponsible and should be sent to the devil. Yes! But the Greeks are the ones who have to do that!
Well, with this ignorant mentality we see how the Germans are again destroying Europe.
ReplyDeleteRest in Peace.
You must be a Greek! I like your country - I am German. All in Greece have to blame the amateur and incompetent poker players tsipras and vofuwshatever... you killed yourself. best is .. out of the euro - reform lean and come back f you want .... I expect he same from France and Italy.. YOU CANT SPEND MORE THEN YOU HAVE. YOUR GNP IS 2 % OF ALL OF THE EU. THANK YOU FOR YOUR OLIVE OIL
DeleteWell, Guest (xenos), your short sentence shows your mental awareness, it did not open during the discussions, not during the last days either, so, indeed, you ask for the full abyss to wake up.
DeleteYesterday I searched for a photo on internet, to create a kind of a photo collage for the sentence, written by Stathis Kalyvas (Greek, professor in political science at Yale University, author of the book: Modern Greece), on Twitter: "Greece is about to become the suicide bomber who fails to kill anyone else"
You are a kind of a suicide bomber. Watch the photos with the rests of these suicide bombers. Realize that this is what also YOU are creating with Greece, by your not willing to open your mind for common sense and reality.
Google on this: suicide bomber body
Watch the bodies. Count the heads, look at the faces.
THIS is going to happen with Greece, with the country that you want to save from the Germans.
IF you would be a realist then you would KNOW that today, each single euro that is able to be withdrawn from the bank, is there because of the Germans.
You are a disgrace here. You are a disgrace for democracy, for humanity.
What are you doing here more than leaving your unawareness, your hatred, your proof of a lack of intelligence. Criticism with not any fundament, not more than just and only hatred, and resentment.
From now on you are forbidden to take money from any bank, it is German money! Be fair also there. Do not want it.
Be so honest not even willing to take money from Germany. That is proving that you know what you are writing, and showing real spirit.
But I am sure that you will. Coward.
IF today you are taking money from the bank, I wish you know that you take money from the pockets of Europeans. Also my money.
Burglar.
Thief.
It is not for you.
Only for Greeks who want to stay in EU and show respect for all the effort.
Not you.
You are banned.
Humiliator.
@Antoinette. I imagine that you keep the psychiatrists of Norway well employed. There is nothing to be said to the crazy nonsense that you post here, except that it is personally offensive and totally unacceptable.
DeleteI would you ask you to keep your mouth shut, but this is pointless for someone with a psychiatric condition. You cannot act other than you do. In earlier times, you would have been burned at the stake: today, we can offer you medicines.
@Anonymous. I am British, not Greek but lived in Greece for 17 years and have conducted research on economic issues there since 1988.
DeleteDespite my harsh words here, I am not anti-German. But I despair of the German mentality, which is too conformist and too gullible. Europe needs vision, not conformism to a failed economic ideology. This vision is missing.
Better ban that guy, he's a well known anti-German troll, Klaus. Letting him post here will only harm the discussions.
DeleteGreek crisis: 'We rely on imports. Soon even the most basic goods won't be available’
ReplyDeleteGreece is facing a humanitarian crisis and business is likely to suffer because of capital controls, say Greek MPs and business owners
"No economy functions without banks," said Kyriakos Mitsotakis, a senior MP in New Democracy, a centre-right opposition party. "Some people in Syriza think that shutting them down for week is just a minor hiccup, which isn't surprising as many Syriza people have never worked in the private sector. But it's not a hiccup, it's a huge shock."
Telegraph
Fear and Frustration: Life Under Capital Controls
http://tinyurl.com/njhzfr7
Very moving...
First help on it´s way! (Tsipras out)
Then the country needs nation building from ground up.
All folks in Europe (Not EU) will be onboard and support that project - but the Greek people must want it themselves.
First we take Greece - then we take the Eurozone and EU - first then will Europe get a new renaissance - and finally help itself.
I completely agree with RD Krause's view
ReplyDeleteOne can see from this article, how Germany lost two world wars...
ReplyDeleteYou expose your I.Q. here and my wish is that one day you will realize what is really going on. You will be ashamed, deeply ashamed.
DeleteBe somebody. I am sure you are nobody, just a failed person.
Only repeating popular Greek sentences about Germans. You are a copyer and paster.
Not more.
Your words are of a level of a ten years young child.
@Anonymous: absolutely. It is not that Germans are bad people, but they have a serious cultural problem that seems to be derived from religion. They are incapable of rational thought as a consequence, but paradoxically think themselves more rational than anyone else.
DeleteHistory provides the evidence of what we are, even if we try to escape it. And often, history repeats itself with a variant -- enough for people to fool themselves that they are not making the same mistakes again and again.
To Xenos And Roger, (In reply to your replies from Yesterday's Article)
ReplyDeleteThank you for your replies. Even though both of you hold different views, both of you have good thoughts on the issues. Your support will help me cope because unfortunately with my foreign business associates i can not express what is inside because business is business.
I am fed up and i do not care what will happen. I just want to see my countrymen (those who are) suffering to stop suffering in the long term.
It is quite hard to work these days with all this crisis, meanwhile the technical aspects with the banks and import/export customs have frozen. Plans of project for 3 years time lines are litterlly in the air. I read today that Sarantis, the greek jams manufacturer, will close due to liquidity problems as to purchase raw materials. (I gues they were working JIT logistics managment) I will push on though no matter what.
As so you can have an idea how chaotic things are, or will be, a close person to me was called a fascist by one person and another person called him a communist. Two people's opinion for one person. Why? because he spoke of logical ideas very similar to how i speak and along the lines of how Mr. Kastner speaks. Everyone is looking to label.
I read Mr. Kastner's new post. The outburst of that German figure is well put. The main conclusion is are the greeks ready to rebuild themselves. Yes/No answer i think we are doomed regardless. But, I have the impression that if we do not break completely we can not begin to rebuild. The "No" which i believe is right, not for saying no to europe (which under normal circumstance is completely idiotic), but "no" to our bad selves. Europe will always be our scapegoat unfortunately in a "yes" vote. A "No" is a complete disaster and i am very comprehensive about that. Because after a "No" the old ideaologies will linger on but for how long? When half the population will be in famine. We need to suffer before we rise to what we should be.
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ReplyDeleteAlthough i dislike and rejected 95% of what Antoinette states she is right that we need to reboot ourselves. It is a manditory necessity. People who want to vote for the lesser bads of the yes/no vote are scared of the no. Because a "no" vote will force every greek to look in the mirror. Only then we can accept who we are and look to the future. I am sure many will see a very ugly face. Although there will be many superego's who refuse to look in the mirror and continue to blame, lefts, rights and germany. I can only hope it does not take 50 years like germany did after ww2. Germans had the luxury of staring at Berlin wall for 50 years to embed to look at themselfs. A constant reminder of the wrongdoing of the past. When that wall fell viewing it from the TV in the USA, it was a proud moment for me for the German people. Regardless of what my country has suffered from the past. Many such examples across europe, all of europe, made me fall in love with Greece and europe. A beautiful landscape of so many different people tied into a similar history. I tears me to say goodbye, if we do go goodbye to my fellow europeans, but the "no" means we must hit the self destruct button on our own. People, everyday people think the no will lead to communistical state based on clientalism. That we will return to the old days. "No" will lead to a modern civil war and only after the ashes fall and the bad blood has bled will we arise again. It is the only way to have some dignity. I don't want anymore bailouts. I do not want to be a burden to anybody. I would more much prefer a bail in, even though the 4,500 euro in the bank is my childrens money. My children, our children do not need money or things. Our children need education. Education of not books only but on frugality and being humble.
Thanks For You Support,
Xenos, it is funny i have a friend (business friend from nottingham) his name is Martyn.
If i ever finish my rooms to let project both you and Roger will be more than welcome to stay at my expense. Likewise you too Mr. Kastner.
Sincerely,
V
Dear V, I do appreciate your take on life, and urge you to find the courage and determination to see this through. Greece has been through worse, and survived with integrity. Think of the terrible period of the Asia Minor Catastrophe (and how Venizelos dealt with the mess, with dramatic negotiations very similar to those of Tsipras). Think of the terrible suffering in the nazi occupation of Greece, where so many died of starvation and the germans slaughtered the entire Jewish population of Salonika. There is a long list of suffering...
DeleteYesterday, I was 3 hours on hte phone to Athens, 1,5 hours on skype to Athens and 2 hours to Greek friends in London and Germany. I understood quite well how bad the situation is, as you describe. But greece will (as always) get through the disaster: coping with crisis (a Greek word) is in the culture if not genes.
I wish you every success with your work (and your project of rooms to let, which I will be happy to advertise).
Dear V,
DeleteI wish you a succesful "reboot". I agree with you, such a mental reboot, the will to rebuildt a nation by your own, is much more important than a question of beeing inside or outside EuroZone.
And I also agree with you, a deep shock often helps to radically fasten it. I hope the shock will work in the „right“ direction.
Nevertheless, I want encourage you not to compare Greece with Germany.
Germany was an especially bad case. We destroyed whole Europe an murdered half of Europe, so the time to atone had to be much longer than for other nations. Greece did nothing comparable.
I would encourage to look on Poland as prototype. Polish people are as proud and stubborn as Greeks, and in their cultural tradition as anarchical and anti-state as Greeks as they also had foreign rulers (Germans and Russians) for long centuries in history whom they fought against.
In the late 1980th Poland was a country in deep decay. They were discredited in Eastern Germany as "they empty our shops and steal our stuff" because Poland was too poor and economically bancrupt to produce enough things for its own people. They were quite short of starving.
Poland was the country who struggled down the communist regime (Solidarnosc). The rest of Eastern Europe had a quite easy walk afterwards. We "Eastern Germans" owe them for it!
Today, 25 years later, polish friends proudly tell me that their country never before in history was freer, stronger, richer and in better shape than these days. What difference 25 years can make!
OK, their GDP/persona is still only 70% of the Greek one, (so they dont understand Greek claims,) but for Poland the rise of prosperity is huge! When you visit Poland today - the cities have become really beautiful, the people are friendly and self confident!
I wish Greece can claim the same 25 years after the crash, beeing freer, stronger, richer and in better shape than any time before in history.
PS: When I will visit Greece anytime I ask Mr. Kastner to send me your mailadress.
Best regards, Roger.
To Xenos,
DeleteGreece has seen worse, but every circumstance is relative to their times. Greeks, aside from myself and a handful of other, are not much of who they were from anceint times like leonidas, nor like our fathers of ww2. I believe many greeks have lost themselves in the Americanization of greece in the boom years. In the 80's and 90's as a child greeks much poorer than me thought dollars grew on trees, meanwhile whatever money i use to bring at that age was my annual savings as my parents only had enough money to pay for my ticket. (I was brought up to pay your own way and to never borrow. If you can't pay for it today don't buy it.) Greeks of greece seeing us foreign greeks bought into the idea of debt and all would be good. Unfortunately greeks of greece were never trained properly on debt. Home economics. They lost themselves in the frenzy of free money. Which lead to the bubble burst.
What i want to say is that yes greeks may find themselves after a new difficult period, but i am concerned who they will find? Themselves from the 80's, or the new neo Greek of the 90's 00's.
I have stopped stating my views as of late openly here because "labeling" has already become evident. Labeling is not good. Meanwhile the demonstration of many yesterday (many of my colleagues) for the pro Yes, leaftlets were thrown into the crowd stating, "traitors your time is coming." Even though i am quietly against the yes vote for my expressed reasons, the people all people have the right of freedom of speech and expression. This is all not leading down a good road.
To Roger,
I have many mixed ideas on the Germany of ww2. I have read tons of books and i still do not believ i have covered enough yet. It is quite a large discussion as to express over comments. From a humanity viewpoint you need to analyze what the German population had to go through from the periods of 1900 up to 1935. As a people, people are people. Pawns. I do not forgive what happened but you must put yourself in all positions, as to understand why a human can reach a specific point to do something. And is why I am a supporter of the 1950's agreement on germany's debt. It was a humane act of the rest of the people of the world to germany. That document and that wall are not just a symbol of forgiveness and remeberance of the past of Germany. It is much bigger. It is a example of how good humans are. With such acts and such symbols we must adhere to them as they are not plain but they are divine.
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DeletePoland. Poland had an advatage my friend. The were under the foot of communism. Being released allowed them to chase and maintain their freedom. Had greece been under the soviet rule we would certainly be a different nation today. And is the reason why Poland has achieved so much in 25 years. And they also had the brains as to not enter the euro, yet. Poland will soon become #2 in europe. Then they will join. Much smarter politicians and people. On a personal level (As i can't say much) we have alot of business with them and i do business with them. Many friends from poland. The took the eu funding and invested it i would say to 99% of their infrastructure an business models for growth. In Greece, i doubt that no more than 20% of eu funding was used in the same manner. Much of the money was squwandered.
For me, i have already rebooted. Well, not much though. I do not need to reboot as i am quite humble, free of debt, invest every penny, pay my taxes 95% of them (Sorry sometime i am embarressed to ask for a recipt whn it is not given). My personal reboot i would say is my responsibility versus my local peers and my fellow europeans. Not being from greece, or not born in greece i satnd out like duck in chicken coup. When i say i have alot to loose i mean it. Under the new forms of things i am considered rich, hence the new laws will destroy my salary and annual income. My equivalents will all vote yes because they want to safeguard their own interests. In my own interests. we have an obligation as to become a resposible country and no menas we have no funding. We must live on our own means. My interests are not in myself. My interests are in the society where i would like my children to grow up in. To grow up and become humane and understand my viewpoints mentioned above on ww2 germany. A society that is humble as i was privelage to live and see first hand. EU in the 80s.
Wife is panicking and asked if we can move to the USA if need be. I told yes it is possible, but i am not leaving my country. We stay through everything.
I like to talk to both of you. I will highly enjoy to conitue doing this before we one day meet. ETA on the rooms is summer 2017, but with the new economical developments i am not sure.
Take Care,
V
If I were you I would decide my vote on just one question: What result may better help Greeks to get a mental reboot into the right direction?
DeleteHonestly, I don't know it.
Ty,
DeleteRoger, your bluntness is trruly astounding. Thanks for taking the time to read the pages of mind and simplifying my dilema.
Sincerely,
V
Update on the traditional German pigheaded arrogance: Merkel has announced that no new deal can be reached with Greece before the referendum is held. The obvious implication is that Germany wants Greece out of the eurozone, maybe out of the EU, and couldn't give a fuck about the cohesion and future of Europe.
ReplyDeleteUnusually, Thatcher was right in her initial reaction to German reunification plans -- which was to block it. She feared that Germany would become too powerful and shift the balance of power in Europe. Now we see the result of giving the Germans leeway: they abuse it, and repeat the mistakes of the past.
Xenos, I know we have quite different opinion. But even if you have usually a little logic to follow, this time you lost it completely. Please take care that your aversion for Germany and Merkel dont blinds you.
DeleteIn Merkels reactions I can see nothing but respect for the referendum.
Tsipras stopped negotiations and promised to ask his Greek people in a referendum what they think about it. So the respect for the Greek people demands to await their answer before starting new negotiations.
To call that respect "wanting Greece out of Eurozone" is really a strange interpretation. By the way, Greece and only Greece can kick itself out of Eurozone, as Varoufakis told us several times.
I pass your second paragraph as it is totally OT (who cares about Thatcher?) and just filled by wimpy hate instead of competent analyses. You can do it better.
@Roger. I don't mind that you have a different opinion. I am more concerned that you have a different logic! I see no "respect for the referendum" from Germany at all: there was absolute outrage about it, now as with Papandreou. Moreover, the attempt by Tsipras to avert the disaster that capital controls are now causing -- by accepting an agreement -- was deliberately and maliciously blocked by Schaeuble. I saw the incident on tv -- lying and manipulating to damage Greece. (Of course, he does it in a very restrained and superficially correct way -- as your Nazis often did.)
DeleteNo, the problem is that Germans have been fed so much propaganda by your politicians and media, that the public mood is now anti-Greek. This consistent propaganda over years has now damaged not only Greece, but also the eurozone and ultimately Germany. If a proper deal could be reached with Greece, today, this would be ideal for everyone: Germany is determined not to allow it. The intent is to destroy the Greek government, for its political intention of removing the destructive policy of austerity from the eurozone.
And my second paragraph is about the power of Germany. I am sorry to say it, especially as you are from the eastern part. It is not that I reject East Germans -- far from it -- but it is the problem of a powerful unified Germany. We would have preferred to welcome you into the EU as your own country, with EU funding to help recover from the bad communist experience. That choice was not given to Europe.
Mr Krause is totally right. But the present Greek government is the result of a democratic election, as were the governments before. So, what can the rest of Europe do? If the European idea is not to suffer further damage, Greece must be encouraged to leave the euro area - and if need be the EU.
ReplyDeleteJust a totally OT question: Does anyone know the journalist "Athanasios D. Laspopoulos"?
ReplyDeleteSince some weeks I receive mails from him (dont ask me how he got my mail adress) where he tries to uncover Greek scandals. I cannot estimate if he has a point or if he is simply crazy.
In his last mail, just today, he sent this link to find his actual and all previous letters. http://ifroc.org/kataggelies
I would be wary of unsolicited emails, unless the sender is a known person. Many are scams to gain access to bank accounts (it's not only Nigerians who do that!).
DeleteΤο Roger
DeleteHe is completely unknown to me. A quick search gives 1 article by that name, in "Chiospress":
http://www.chiospress.gr/arthra/43139-a-laspopoulos-na-katargithoun-oi-kratikes-a-e
I wouldn't exclude though that it may be an alias, since the surname Laspopoulos, derives from Laspi = mud.
@Roger - search on the name, amongst others you should see this Dear My Spammer: EXTORTION - New evidence comes to light
DeleteQuote : If you wish to stop receiving information about scandals and reports exposed, you can send an email to this address: unsubscribe@ifroc.com
I have been receiving mails from this man, too.
DeleteMr. Kastner, Xenos, Roger,
ReplyDeleteI want to ask your opinions and i would appreciate your honest answers. 5 months now and especailly since Friday night there has been a unstopable attack on our government. Or in other terms anybody that is pro "No". The last days all channels with exception to the ERT, (which is the only news channel you can watch without having a brain anurism.), have bombarded us with exit catastrophies, videos of Argentina, forecats of the economic and social turmoil to come. Quotes by Junker and the rest do not help. "After Monday, the greeks of athens will see seens which have never seen before." Or tousk stating "the gam is up." Makes me feel nice and warm inside. And by the way when was my life a game to someone? Are we truly such pawns of society? Maybe not even the soft cushion under the pawns themselves. Tv, Radio, Ads, Internt, All print.
My question why such an escalated propoganda on giving in to the creditors or more nicely put agreeing with the creditors. Regardless of what austerity has proven in Greece. High profile interviews on the same matter. Complete brain squeeze. Even the media is presenting the global media input on how bad things will be.
Is this a new shock and awe? Is there something bigger at stake? Or is there a real concern for greek people. I donot belive it nor do not trust it.
I trust your opinions though.
I assume things will be bad but it also comes as if this will be the end of days for greece and its people. Haven't our forefathers always taught us that, "this to will pass?"
Meanwhile, i hear some pro "no" advocates stating that we will simple stop paying debt, go on with a balanced budget with euro (under tight banking squeeze ofcourse), but more or less business as usual. The economy will contract for the simple reason that less cash will flow. The result of handcuffing capital controls. Meanwhile they state that formally we can not be kicked out of the euro. Is this indeed true?
Listen, we may have had all our differences of opinion but one thing for sure and is a fact. The average german citizen (mainly german) and european citizen has done absolutely nothing to offend me directly. And all that I have met i have very and good relations with. (I have a knack at making Germans smile). People of each country have their own right to vote who they choose is the ideal for their country's leadership. As we selected Syriza. If Schauble and Merkel have this political position against greece, it is the good for their people. Like i have said in the past good for the german people. Meanwhile, as i have no quwams with fellow europeans, i do not want to bruden them anymore with our internal problems. It is not fair. And if we want to adhere to a democracy a democracy would rule out this unfairness. So i see we must end the game. No new debt just like schauble stated at some time. (Maybe schauble with his stance is teaching us a good harsh lesson with no pun intended.) Maybe something that Mr. Kastner stated, let the greeks sort out their own imbalnces.
continued below.....
V
The pro/con propaganda was to be expected. There is nothing out of the ordinary. Just remember the recent Scotland referendeum. Each side tried to scare the other side.
DeleteYou are right: default doesn't necessarily have to be bad. All it means is that Greece stopped servicing its foreign debt. If Greece has a primary surplus, things should go on relatively normally. Since the current account is positive, there are enough Euros coming into the country to pay for imports.
The key issue is the banks but they could also default on ECB obligations. I think I once wrote a post how Greece could ringfence everything in such a way that domestic life could go on relatively normally.
Krugman & Co. make similar points like Varoufakis. They all talk about macroeconomics and from a macro standpoint, the Troika program makes absolutely no sense. To me, the far greater problem of Greece is microeconomics. If you support the macro and ignore the micro, money will continue to flow into Greece and it will turn around and leave to pay for imports.
Regarding Euro-membership. There is only one way for a country to leave or be expelled from the Eurozone: it has to leave the EU or it must be expelled from the EU. My understanding is that a country can leave the EU any time it choses. It can only be expelled with due process. For example: if Greece were taken over by a junta, chances are that the EU would start an exit process.
Unfortunately, I don't think it will be very easy to retain a primary surplus now when capital controls are in place. It will most definitely affect businesses negatively and thus reduce tax revenue. The capital controls will have to remain, at least in some form, until confidence in the Greek banking system has been restored. If no agreement, that won't happen for years.
Delete/Stockholm observer
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ReplyDeleteIf we can live on our means under asphixciations and we do not burden our fellow europeans, then why so much propoganda. Likewise why is there so much propoganda, or more nicely put news on how to hate greeks. because like i said in other posts there are some good voice in germany.
I feel like a walking zombie sometimes as of late. Don't know if is the baby sleepless nights or the reading on our crisis or the media bombardment.
Maybe bankruptcy isn;t so bad? Wouldn't people of europe not want a new bailout of greece? I believe so to be true. more than 50% of the german population wants us out of the euro or more accurately, more than 50% of germany does not want to pay for greek bailouts. Doesn't Greek bankruptcy make sense for all small people of europe? Greeks and Germans?
Maybe then we could build again from there. in or out of the euro.
So why so much media. It is so powerful sometimes that it hits my pschyc. Many no's in the coming days will become "yes."
As i stated no is my reply as i have explained to why in my last posts.
On last thought before I pass out. Why so many mixed messages from the USA? Krugamn, Xenos Harvard and Cornell economist sources sate openly that a "no" and bankruptcy should happen. Max Keiser too but i don;t trust him for some reason. The you have an IMF (USA) wanting to punish and pull us back in. Obama requesting to an agreement be made meawhile stating a Grexit is eminant. USA embassy in greece saying their is hope for deal. Why so many mixed messages.
Putin emptied us out today as well. This is a politcal move? Greece is the eu's and USA's bitch? So stay away from our Ukraine bitch?
Also i apologize for rambling on. I feel like i have found a home here to express openly.
Sincerely,
V
Dear V,
DeleteI am happy to hear that you get some comfort from Klaus's blog. I hope that my comments (confrontational as they intentionally are) may be of some little help.
To try to answer your question. I have also been grappling with the same sort of issues. I think we all are, including the world's greatest intellects -- and we are all failing. That is why there are mixed messages.
My own view, for what it is worth, is the following. Advanced capitalism is in crisis, and has been for some time but few noticed. How could that be? Well, neoliberal economists decided that it's not a problem that the West no longer produces key manufactured goods, and has to import them; that we no longer have any competitive advantage in a global economy, with slave labour in India and China etc to outcompete; or run up massive state debts, in order to balance budgets mostly with welfare and military costs. No, we can pay for all of this by allowing banks to engage in complex games of credit creation with derivatives (computer created), market manipulation and criminal activities, uncontrolled financial behaviour, cheap credit to everyone --- all of this (the same as printing money) created a new sort of economy with little production and massive consumption.
It fell apart in 2009, when the Emperor was revealed as wearing no clothes. Suddenly, the massive debts of governments came under scrutiny, and Greece was the worst case in the eurozone. The politicians made terrible mistakes, were fearful of banking collapse, and socialised the Greek (and other) debts to German and French banks -- transferring Greek debt away from the private sector into the public sector. That is where it went very wrong.
/cont.
DeleteNow, the whole eurozone is in a terrible state; only the Germans have a current account surplus but consider it as "their money", and the structure of the eurozone (unlike the US dollar zone) does not adequately recycle money so as to stabilise the eurozone. Various instruments have been created supposedly to remedy this, such as the ELA, but they are short-term and under political control. Here lies the key.
By politicising the management of the eurozone economies, these brain-dead politicians have created a dysfunctional system that demands conformity with central political decisions -- usually from Germany. The right wing austerity politics of Germany and others is in direct conflict with any government that dares to challenge their view of a clearly failed economic policy. They do not care that they are wrong, because they hold power. They decided some time ago to damage the new Greek government, and try to remove it, because the Greek government wants to change eurozone policy -- away from austerity and towards something intelligent that will allow indebted economies to grow. This is Verboten.
The eurozone is in a power struggle, with Greece in a minority of one. All the other governments are pro-austerity and many anti-democracy, absolutely terrified of the idea of being accountable to their people. The fact that the economic policies being pursued are stupid, damaging the entire periphery of Europe, does not matter. Schaeuble KNOWS that he is right, and that is all that matters.
Whither Greece? Should it knuckle under and obey the German diktat, suffer for another 25 years in the same way as the last 5? If so, then probably a YES vote would do that (and would remove Tsipras). Or should it fight the stupidity and inhumanity of austerity economics (which no serious economist supports) and ask Tsipras to continue the unequal war with the eurogroup. The NO vote indicates such, but the outcome is very very uncertain. This may well be the route to exit from the euro, and continued capital controls, and further economic depression in the short-medium run.
What is going on now should have been done 5 years ago, before the German banks were bailed out by the eurozone. The Germans were vulnerable then, but Greece had put the malakas Papandreou as prime minister. You know the result, including his replacement by servants of the Troika. This is a political struggle, and for the moment Greeks are on their own. This may change, but nothing is clear.
For some time, i argued on Varoufakis's blog that the best solution for Greece would be collapse of the eurozone (or expulsion of Germany from it). For Greece to leave on its own, will be very costly and very painful for many years. This is the threat that the Europeans are making, although Schaeuble is smart enough not to do so: he realises that there is no legal way to expel Greece, so it will have to be done by brute force and political damage. That is where we are now: "do as you are told, or fuck off and die". This is the message that Germany has chosen as the eurozone motto: I am sure that Beethoven must be so proud that the "Ode to Joy" of his 9th symphony accompanies the message.
Το V
DeleteYou should ask Tsipras on why he asks you to give a "proud NO" as in 1940 on Sunday, while minister Stratoulis and Lafazanis talk of drachma and at the same time Tsipras asks for a proud new program of 29 beur up to 2017.
I had warned you about charlatans...
Ty Xenos,
DeleteV
Hello V,
ReplyDeleteyou ask for my opinion. It is my personal opinion, I do not know the truth as no one knows.
"Is this a new shock and awe?"
Personally I do not think. For me that is a much to easy answer, like "Bad foreigners try to manipulate us, because they are bad."
Greece has a new referendum, in quite short time. About a quite important question.
Referenda are divisive by definition, as there is "Yes" and "No", but no "perhaps".
It is nessesary for a democracy to exchange opinions. Democracy is loud, sometimes. It has to be. That is the price to be paid for the right of free expression, even if it can quite hurt sometimes. Dictatorships are calmer as opposition is forbidden.
"Is there something bigger at stake?"
Many Europeans see the "No" as the first, but most important step of Greece leaving EU. And as many European Politicians feel destinied to buid a United Europe, not destroy it, they do not like the idea. (Hence they offered Greece much more than many of their own people supported, and so in many national elections the EU-sceptics increase their share of votes).
I suppose they honestly think they have to tell Greeks what is on stakes as these wouldnt know otherwise. IMHO this is a hybris as Greeks are not stupid and know what is on stakes, that "No" means Grexit and perhaps even more.
"Or is there a real concern for greek people."
I think that is too. I honestly think that most Europeans, also Schäuble, offered their support and credits in the true believe that it should help Greece. (Xenon will doubt but I believe it.) They offered a medicine that did not work as smoothly as Greeks hoped (and perhaps it failed completely) but they were the only one offering medicine at all, and they still are.
No Russians, no Americans, no Chinese, no private lenders did, as all knew Greece would never pay the medicine so the doctor has to pay.
"Why so many mixed messages from the USA?"
In a free country people are free to say their opinion, and it may differ from person to person. As there is no American motivation to pay Greece it is much easier to say "Come on Europe, you shall pay Greeks want to get". Look what Americans say about Puerto Rico, if and how much they help there easen the debt burden, as there American money had to be spend.
Additionally, some Americans imagine a crashing Greece close to a unstable region may get the next self destructing country, with Syria and Libya quite close. Two countries where good intentions resulted in a nightmare. A similar szenario in Greece would be no fun at all, also not for America.
"Putin emptied us out today as well."
Did Putin help Cyprus, what was much smaller and had more Russian capital interests? No, he did not, he only offered lukewarm words. Hence I wondered anyone expected Putin to help Greece.
Tell me ANY country Putin helped out of altruistic or solidarity reasons.
As an Eastern German, born in GDR, I say: Be glad not to get too much depended from Russia. Actually Ukraine has to pay huge for it.
An opposition newspaper reports that the relations between prof. Varoufakis and other advisors of Tsipras have deteriorated, that he has already asked his aides to gather their papers and prepare to go back to their previous jobs on Monday and he prepares his resignation.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.protothema.gr/politics/article/489304/se-esoteriki-peridinisi-o-suriza-auxanodai-oi-fones-gia-mataiosi-tou-dimopsifismatos/
In the meantime, the MPs of SYRIZA are quarelling over the referendum, with the hardliners of Left Platform still supporting it.
Typical of a flawless SYRIZA plan.
I have always respected Rolf-Dieter Krause for his balanced views, he is certainly not a man to use harsh words. His opinions here are shared by most Europeans. For the average European they are projected onto the whole Greek population, who has voted for populist governments for decades. Most Europeans I know hope that Greece will say no deal, they just don't believe that any Greek government will honor the deal. Should the Greeks say yes, it will be extremely difficult to, unanimously, agree on a new bail out, and Germany will not be the biggest hurdle. Just think about the nations with lower GNP per capita than Greece, or nations that have successfully balanced their budgets. Unfortunately the Greek government thinks that European politics work like Greek politics. They think Ms. Merkel can take other European leaders into the back room and make a shady deal with them, no such luck. So, the Dutch auction is still on, the conditions get harsher by each day.
ReplyDeleteLennard
@V
ReplyDeleteJournalists are all about problematizing. It is natural for them to question and even switch view point every now and then. The economic model for journalism which relied on advertising has changed fundamentally with internet and is a chapter of its own, unrelated to the greek crisis. Do not blame journalists, they have faced economic woes arguably as tough or even worse then Greece.
As fascinating it is to follow the economics in this historic event, the media drama is equally fascinating to follow. The quest for getting attention. The struggle for phrasing the questions to be debated. I admire the Syriza propaganda machine. It is truly amazing. It is also not really countered from Europe. What you see as propaganda I see as press statements and comments from debators. There are a lot of comments and debators arguing the syriza side of the conflict as well. Problematizing.
Nobody really knows what will happen next but one could make a few good guesses.
1) Greece will not be able to "live on its means"
Because a) it has not done so for the past 30 years and although it was almost on a surplus last year that surplus is already gone. b) the state stopped paying a lot of companies in the private sector who are waiting to get paid since the elections in January. c) Part of the Thessaloniki program which increases state expenditures has been implemented (rehiring the cleaning ladies and ERT, increase pensions for DEI etc). d) Long term fiscal measures like the taxing of the rich, also in the Thessalonoki program, has not been implemented. e) Enfia for 2015 is yet to be announced.
2) The forces to throw Greece out of the euro got wind in their sails
Although throwing Greece out of the euro is thouroughly stupid for both sides there are forces both in Greece and in Europe that want to do so. Syriza is betting heavily on Europe to yield. Maybe it will I do no know. But please do realize that both inside and outside Greece there are those that want Greece out. Much have been said on Varoufakis expertise on game theory. The only paper I read from him is one that he explains why game theory does not work. More over, game theory is a questioned theory in practice. Behavioral scientists has proven time and again that game theory does not work because humans in general do not necessarily think rationally. Draw your own conclusions about politicians thinking rationally.
3) The referendum is supported by the far left and the far right.
Syriza, KKE, Anel and Golden dawn are campaigning for No. Seriously! Why would you support these? If you do not want to vote yes why note vote blanc?
4) Big decisions in EU usually waits till after major countries elections
One of the problem with EU decisiveness on major decisions is that they are never taken before major elections in big countries like Germany, France and UK. I suspect any third package for Greece will wait until Spain has had its elections. Not to punish Greece, simply because it makes sense from a spanish perspective. Greece not paying their debts this year does not really hurt the euro countries economically.
5) Who says debt will go away?
This is Klaus expertise more than mine. I do not think all debt will go away even if Greece defaults. The ELA which was raised this spring is not on Greek state papers right?
Thanks for a very well written post!;)
DeleteI thought I had replied to this but I can't find it. No, the debt will not go away. Debt can only go away through (a) repayment or (b) forgiveness. 320 BEUR in state debt will continue to be 320 BEUR (in Euro!) of state debt after Grexit. No doubt about it. Except, after Grexit and the near-certain dramatic devaluation of the new local currency, the debt will look even more sustainable than before and the significant haircut would be likely. But not to zero!!!
DeleteJournalists are all about problematizing. It is natural for them to question and even switch view point every now and then. The economic model for journalism which relied on advertising has changed fundamentally with internet and is a chapter of its own unrelated to the greek crisis. Do not blame journalists, they have faced economic woes arguably as tough or worse then Greece.
ReplyDeleteAs fascinating it is to follow the economics in this historic event, the media drama is equally fascinating to follow. The quest for getting attention. The struggle for phrasing the questions to be debated. I admire the Syriza propaganda machine. It is truly amazing. It is also not really countered from Europe. What you see as propaganda I see as press statements and comments from debators. There are a lot of comments and debators arguing the syriza side of the conflict as well. Problematizing.
Nobody really knows what will happen next but one could make a few good guesses.
1) Greece will not be able to "live on its means"
Because a) it has not done so for the past 30 years and although it was almost on a surplus last year that surplus is already gone. b) the state stopped paying a lot of companies in the private sector who are waiting to get paid since the elections in January. c) Part of the Thessaloniki program which increases state expenditures has been implemented (rehiring the cleaning ladies and ERT, increase pensions for DEI etc). d) Long term fiscal measures like the taxing of the rich, also in the Thessalonoki program, has not been implemented. e) Enfia for 2015 is yet to be announced.
2) The forces to throw Greece out of the euro got wind in their sails
Although throwing Greece out of the euro is thouroughly stupid for both sides there are forces both in Greece and in Europe that want to do so. Syriza is betting heavily on Europe to yield. Maybe it will I do no know. But please do realize that both inside and outside Greece there are those that want Greece out. Much have been said on Varoufakis expertise on game theory. The only paper I read from him is one that he explains why game theory does not work. More over, game theory is a questioned theory in practice. Behavioral scientists has proven time and again that game theory does not work because humans in general do not necessarily think rationally. Draw your own conclusions about politicians thinking rationally.
3) The referendum is supported by the far left and the far right.
Syriza, KKE, Anel and Golden dawn are campaigning for No. Seriously! Why would you support these? If you do not want to vote yes why note vote blanc?
4) Big decisions in EU usually waits till after major countries elections
One of the problem with EU decisiveness on major decisions is that they are never taken before major elections in big countries like Germany, France and UK. I suspect any third package for Greece will wait until Spain has had its elections. Not to punish Greece, simply because it makes sense from a spanish perspective. Greece not paying their debts this year does not really hurt the euro countries economically.
5) Who says debt will go away?
This is Klaus expertise more than mine. I do not think all debt will go away even if Greece defaults. The ELA which was raised this spring is not on Greek state papers right?
No debt will go away simply because Greece defaults. Only two things can make debt go away: (1) repayment or (2) forgiveness. Even if Greece converts to the drachma, the debt in Euros will continue to exist. Only the pressue to renegotiate/forgive it is so much greater.
DeleteYes, of course the German demand for austerity in an economy with 25% unemployment is out of the goodness of their hearts. No other interpretation is possible.
ReplyDeleteWell said!
DeleteSee http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/06/michael-hudson-will-greece-let-eu-central-bankers-destroy-democracy.html an article that explains what is happening in Greece and why.
ReplyDeleteGiven the opportunity that the people are absorbed with the referendum, SYRIZA quietly hires back 230 employees of the Athens metro.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.protothema.gr/economy/article/489470/apisteuto-en-meso-hreokopias-kanoun-230-proslipseis-sto-metro/
Tsipras disinformation campaign is in full swing. What a disgrace!
ReplyDeleteHe admittingly had a good mentor in Putin...
Will the Greek people go down with his bullshit disinfo on TV and lay his marxist powerbase maybe for long time to come - as a communistic failed state.
Short in time, with a diffuse nonexistent questions, along with state cunning propaganda he tries to grab the real total power - and make his Utopian dream come through - with full disdain for the people.
zaninna @zaninnat
NO banner in the Ministry of Finance is pure propaganda trashing the essence of democracy
Twitter
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Make my day! Dirty Tsipras.
Here’s the full Associated Press story on the Council of Europe’s comments on the Greek referendum:
The head of the Council of Europe, Europe’s top human rights institution, says Greece’s referendum would fall short of international standards if held as planned on Sunday.
/:/
The vote “has been called on such a short notice, that this in itself is a major problem,” Jagland said Wednesday by phone from Lisbon, Portugal. “And also the fact that the questions that are put to the people ... are not very clear.”
Guardian - Live
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Make my day! Dirty Tsipras.
Key Greek Referendum Debt Document Mistranslated
Here's one 'no' the Greek government should have looked after
/:/
There are three scenarios, and the document’s conclusion is that under the first two there are “no sustainability issues” when the country’s financing needs are taken into account. The official translation provided by the Foreign Ministry and sent to reporters on Monday, though, was missing the word “no.” So the Greek text reads that there is a sustainability issue.
In addition, Greek parliament minutes show that a separate draft translation provided to lawmakers before they were asked to approve the referendum also dropped this crucial “no.” Spokespersons from the interior and foreign ministries declined to comment on the error.
Bloomberg
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Make my day! Dirty Tsipras.
The only hurdle was getting the Greeks to accept the blame for the failure of the negotiations which happened, at least in the perspective of the Eurozone, when Tsipras announced the referendum after midnight on Friday. Merkel herself admitted as much earlier:
MERKEL SAYS GREECE UNILATERALLY ABANDONED SUCCESSFUL TALKS
In other words, when it comes to Europe, Greece lost the blame game, and just like the Ukraine civil war last year, became an unwitting catalyst greenlighting Germany's concession to ECB QE, this time it may be Greece that launches the next step in the ECB's master plan: not just QE but more QE.
This is precisely what Goldman's Franceso Garzarelli, co-head of macro and markets research, admitted earlier today in an interview on Bloomberg TV, when he said that the ECB "will have to go big" if the situation in Greece worsens and leads to wider peripheral bond yield spreads.
/:/
Conveniently, if only for all those 0.01% of the economy who benefit directly from QE, so does the ECB: it is, in fact, ready (and would be delighted) to "go big"...
.... in case Greece votes "Oxi" on Sunday which would mean that, for the second time in the 21st century, Goldman wins and Greece loses.
Zerohedge
In other words - Tsipras will very well be the useful idiot for both EU and Putin
Nice work!
The odds are - it will not work according to his game-plan.
In the end he will be forced out - snap elections and a deal with the EU will follow. (and open banks)
PART 1
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/lazy-socialism-is-for-you
Margaret Thatcher — 'The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.'
There was a huge lack of freedom in communist regimes, but at least they had humanity at the center of their thinking.
Alexis Tsipras
Syriza is what it is: a radical, left-wing party that feels the pulse of the times, knows what's at stake, and is after a wide consensus and unity for political change in Greece. This is something that departs from the narrow limits of the radical left.
Alexis Tsipras
Our "Spoiled Brat" Economy
Submitted by Charles Hugh-Smith of OfTwoMinds blog,
By insuring spoiled brats/vested interests never face the consequences of their actions and choices, we guarantee failure of the entire system.
Spoiled brats do not take kindly to being called out as spoiled brats. Since economies are aggregates of individuals, we can anticipate howls of outraged denial at our economy being identified as spoiled rotten.
The two essential characteristics of spoiled brats are 1) a complete disregard for the burdens of those paying the bills and 2) a childishly self-absorbed sense of overweening entitlement. Spoiled brats have no sense of fiscal discipline. Indeed, it is their defining characteristic. They want what they want, and they want it now, regardless of the cost to others or the system as a whole.
In America's Spoiled Brat Economy, no vested interest is ever allowed to fail. Lost billions gambling with borrowed money? Just throw a K Street temper tantrum and threaten to close all the ATMs when you go broke, and voila, Mommy and Daddy (the federal government and Federal Reserve) come rushing with trillions of dollars to make all the bad things like well-deserved bankruptcy go away.
That tens of millions of savers must be robbed of hundreds of billions of dollars in lost interest to rebuild your banks' profits and balance sheets--the sacrifices of others are of no concern to spoiled brats.
What does not allowed to fail bring to mind? How about coddled children who are crippled by helicopter parents who do their homework for them and schools that give everybody passing grades and gold stars?
A system that doesn't allow individuals and enterprises to fail is a system that is simply taking another path to failure. Students who are given gold stars and 9th place ribbons (Meet the Fockers) cannot possibly establish a real sense of accomplishment or learn how to make a realistic assessment of their deficiencies or strengths. They are crippled by all the "help" enablers press on them.
The same is true of spoiled-brat economies. Enterprises that are never allowed to fail (for example, too big to fail banks, bankrupt cities, counties and states, defense contractors who produce failed weapons systems, healthcare organizations that cheat the government and patients, etc. etc. etc.) become deadwood that saps the vitality of the economy, dragging down the few productive sectors.
The "help" lavished on vested interests include sweetheart contracts, direct subsidies, tax credits, lines of credit, zero interest rates and a vast range of other subsidies. The entire point of the vast lobbying machine that funnels federal and Federal Reserve largesse to vested interests is about staving off the very failure that keeps economies from imploding (creative destruction).
The Yellowstone Analogy and The Crisis of Neoliberal Capitalism (May 18, 2009)
Innovation, Risk and the Forest Fire Analogy (July 2, 2010)
By insuring spoiled brats/vested interests never face the consequences of their actions, choices and self-absorbed greed, we guarantee failure of the entire system. So by all means, keep passing out subsidies to too big to fail banks and 9th-place ribbons, and give the brats whatever they want as soon as they start wailing, regardless of the cost to the system itself.
PART 2
ReplyDeleteCOMMENTS:
Mike Honcho
How so?
hedgeless_horseman
How so?
Anti-austerity is pro-deficit spending (inflation) and pro-taxation, both of which are nothing more than schemes to transfer wealth from the haves to the have-nots, theft, usually in exchange for votes and at the point of a gun.
Anti-Austerity is pro-big-government and the protests are almost entirely populated by astro-turf government workers.
I am a Libertarian, and I am for maximum freedom and minimum government, which means I am not reliant on the government as a child is to a parent, and not willing to give up my liberty for perceived security. I will not support laws and governemnt that are meant for nothing other than to legitimize plunder.
“But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime.”
- Frédéric Bastiat, The Law
“Now, legal plunder can be committed in an infinite number of ways. Thus we have an infinite number of plans for organizing it: tariffs, protection, benefits, subsidies, encouragements, progressive taxation, public schools, guaranteed jobs, guaranteed profits, minimum wages, a right to relief, a right to the tools of labor, free credit, and so on, and so on.”
- Frédéric Bastiat, The Law
greenskeeper carl
Deficit spending is the worst of all. You are borrowing money against the future work of those not yet born and Not yet old enough to participate in the decision making process. Borrowing money the your children and grandchildren will be expected to pay back (or pay interest in for their entire lives) is the pinnacle of spoiled best behavior. Give me mine now and fuck everyone else.
Today, the Council of Europe released statement, where the greek referendum doesn't correspond to international standards.
ReplyDelete- Only 7 days before the referendum.
- The question is vague.
http://www.protothema.gr/politics/article/489431/sumvoulio-tis-europis-to-elliniko-dimopsifisma-den-adapokrinetai-sta-diethni-protupa/
If i may add, the questionnaire, containes english text and the NO above the YES, while in greek, it is customary to ask "Yes or No", not "No or Yes". The addition of the english text, is part of psychological trap for the voters. It sends a subconscious message that this is an FOREIGN plan, so a plan to vote against. It also helps to confuse elderly people, who then might check the first box (NO), thinking that it will be yes (because when someone asks if you approve, one assumes it will be Yes or No, instead of No or Yes).
The last time that the Council Of Europe had something to say on greek election procedurs, was under the military junta 1967-74.
So much for democracy. This is the voting paper:
http://news.in.gr/greece/article/?aid=1500008601
Solidarity message to Alexis Tsipras and the greek people from Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro, who explains to the greek people how they broke their own IMF chains:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.protothema.gr/politics/article/489512/ti-subarastasi-tis-ston-elliniko-lao-exefrase-i-venezouela/
An inspiration for every Greek.
Greece’s finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, has published a short’n’snappy bullet point list of reasons to vote no on Sunday.
ReplyDeleteIt includes the fact that Greece’s debt is unsustainable and should be restructured, and a promise that a No vote won’t lead to Greece leaving the euro.
Greeks should say “a big NO, he concludes. Here’s why:
(and the list)
Guardian
The list is just more disinfo and have debt restructuring and to stay in the Eurozone as the only two reasons.
The Tsipras gov. is heavy on debt canceling and propaganda but low on substance and reforms.
http://tinyurl.com/greek-future
Debt restructuring is a nobrainer under the right circumstances - BUT - can only happen with a serious government, trust and serious reforms.
Neither exist at the moment and the gov. itself is now a problem after 5 months of nothingness as a game strategy.
Greeks communistic government can´t promise to stay in the Eurozone.
If a big NO happens and everything else go down the drain - one way or another Greece will NOT stay in the Eurozone - as it is a club with rules.
To top it off!
Helena Smith
Guardian
Greece’s highest court in the land, the council of state, may have the last say in whether a referendum is held on Sunday after receiving an appeal from citizens for the vote to cancelled for being illegitimate on constitutional grounds.
The tribunal has said it will consider the appeal - apparently made by two individuals - on Friday with a judgement expected later that day!
Not to speak about EU
Greek referendum falls short of standards: Council of Europe
Die Weiße Rose
ReplyDeleteVaroufakis is a dead man walking, politically speaking, as is Tsipras.
Those two Idiots would do anything to save their Jobs...
the only money they got coming in is via emergency handouts from other European Taxpayers -
If the Greek People vote NO on Sunday, the last lifeline from the ECB will have to be shut off
a NO means - Greece will be out of the Eurozone with no more handouts.
this will be better for the 18 Eurozone member states, but disasterous for Greece,
since it has no Industrie apart from tourism and the Greek Government does not collect taxes,
and is insolvent as we speak.
Varoufakis is a total failure as Greek finance minister, and Tsipras is a conceited megalomaniac,
playing a losing game - taking Greece down to total financial ruin and out of the Euro,
and all just to save himself and the free handout lifestyle on other peoples money.
the sooner these Idiots are thrown out, the better.
the Greeks will vote YES on Sunday and throw those amateur poker players out
of the Government for good.
otherwise things will get much much worse....
not for Tsipras or Varoufakis, but for the Greek People.
WR;)
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besnook
it will be as disastrous to greece as it was for iceland. there will be several years of self imposed austerity followed by freedom from the bankster class. as far as the people are concerned the escape from the eurobanksters and the empire would be much more beneficial to greece.......and russia, once the pipeline is finished.
the eurozone, on the other hand will dissolve once portugal and spain realize independence from the euro banksters is better than dependence upon them. greece has the cards. the eu is bluffing with a king hgh.
From Comments in Zerohedge
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But Iceland is a much more orderly country - and they put their bankers in jail and formed a new government that functioned.
Greece don´t put their corruption in jail and it is a neverending mess.
This government is a mess as well - and they try to fool you one more time!
Same shit - different faces.
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“The impact is limited. The eurozone itself is stable and safe. Contagion risks as in 2012 no longer exist.”
“The fact is,” said Schäuble, “that this [Tsipras] government has done nothing to build up a competent administration and it’s been in office for six months.”
Merkel added: “Europe’s future is not at stake. It would be at stake if we forgot who we are and what makes us strong. We are stronger because of the reform policies of recent years, mainly due to Germany’s position.
Guardian
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The solution lies in the Greek mind - to use reason - and do the right things.
As this guy from Iceland says in the end: You have a choice - to stand down - or to fight. Do you choose to fight - you must fight with reason. Then the politicians will have to recognize and respect you and they will carry out your will.
https://youtu.be/YH0_JQW--gc
The man who changed Iceland - the message for Greece.
To fight with reason instead of chaos and ideological infighting - is the basic challenge in Greece today and the only chance of a solution.
Do you have to post this outright propaganda? It is very tiring to read so much drivel, which is basically not saying anything at all other than being clear pro-German and anti-Greek propaganda.
DeleteAfter the Nazi propaganda period, you should all be ashamed to use this technique. Obviously you did not learn any humility, from being responsible for the worst atrocities in human history.
I don't think my compatriots have realized the gravity of the situation.
ReplyDeleteSoon, the liquidity of the banks is gonna evaporate. At that point the rationing that the finance ministry does with foreign transactions is gonna be meaningless and imports are gonna cease. Considering that Greece doesn't produce enough food or energy for it's own needs, there are gonna be severe shortages.
I plead the Syriza government to resign on it's own before more damage is done. Tsipras is a naive fool, but Varoufakis is a lunatic.
Some interesting articles today:
ReplyDelete1) Potami's leader, Theodorakis, reveals that in his meeting with Tsipras, Tsipras told him that "he doesn't have enough MPs that will vote in favour of a deal".
http://www.protothema.gr/politics/article/489560/theodorakis-horis-sumfonia-pos-tha-apofugoume-to-kourema-ton-katatheseon/
2) Even if one doesn't speak Greece, it is worthy for someone to watch this short televition news video, where minister Lafazanis, in a unique theatrical performance, that many professional actors would envy, leaves the television studio, after denouncing Draghi for not increasing ELA. He expresses his sorrow for the pensioners that are now suffering, but he explains that it's not the greek goverment to blame. It is Draghi's ultimatum and blackmail, who did it without reason, other than blackmail the people and the goverment. How could the goverment know!
http://www.protothema.gr/greece/article/489539/lafazanis-efuge-apo-to-stoudio-tou-star-eno-to-deltio-itan-on-air/
The truth is, that Draghi since January 22 2015, had explicitly said: "Money to greek banks, only if inside program".
At the same time, Tsipras reassures the population that the bank deposits are guaranteed. He is lying once more. According to greek banking websites, greek banks urgently need 8 billion to keep working even at closed state. There are 800 million left before bail-in becomes necessary.
3) SYRIZA in disarray on what to do in the event of the YES winning. Tsipras had left to intend that he will leave the goverment. Sources in SYRIZA say that will go to elections in September in order "not to disturb the tourist season". While there are 50.000 cancellations per day. SYRIZA MP Mitropoulos today says: "Why should we leave? We should stay even with YES".
There are already some shortages in fuel on some islands, meaning SYRIZA had no planning for the day after, as it was to be expected. In the island of Ikaria yesterday, 2 out of 10 gas stations had still fuel to sell.
Tsipras, after having destroyed in 5 months more than any of his predecessors in years, will be able to go away on Monday and forever tell to the agonizing Greeks: "If only you had voted NO, i would have brought you paradise. You didn't let me save you and i was deposed by Draghi".
In ancient Greece there were theatrical contests where at the same venue, both comedies and tragedies were presented to the spectators. The tradition continues today.
Hello All,
ReplyDeleteTo AnonymousJuly 1, 2015 at 12:41 PM, reading the below thread is my answer to you.
This is a new thread because replying all threads individually is quite tiring.
Firstly, to Mr. Kastner and Xenos. I would agree with you on the point of macro/microeconomics. You are right and thank you for pointing out that those economists, are mainly looking the Greek economy from that viewpoint. But normally I would believe that both of these economics must go hand in hand. And one affects the other. How can one make a plan based on one of the two while the other remains a constant? For me it is a simple mathematical equation where the result of the two equates to a healthy solution. X + Y = Z. If X is micro and it is a variable and Y macro is a constant, Z is strongly dependent on X. Because if Z is not achieved X becomes a new lesser variable.
The IMF even in 2009, stated that the Greek debt is unsustainable. Meanwhile the Eu refuses to accept this. The Guardian yesterday produced a document leaked by most probably a logical German MP, which proves that Greek debt is unsustainable and concluded, some kind of “refinancing” as you have s well put it is necessary. So if a negotiation is to proceed one must speak in both parameters. Micro and Macro. But there is no trust from our partners to us. (And this has nothing to do with party affiliations but the whole political scene in Greece). Christine Lagarde also stated yesterday that no credit forgiveness will be discussed unless a firm program is in place. If we cannot discuss both issues of economics, we simply go back to the same existing recipe, to a solution which obviously proven that it is outstandingly successful.
Mr. Kastner, I will also strongly support your point that it is our micro economics that in desperate need of improvement. A program. “A plan as you said many times.” (For god sake I can’t even remember how many restless night I sat up devising plans if I was elected.) There is none with any of our government parties. Just a lot of hot air as one oyur german commentators stated. But do we see any type of successful programs on the table? Whether the institutions proposal or the Greeks? I have gone through both line by line. I have evaluated the implications and none make any kind of sense. Especially the fiscal measures. As for the government reforms, for sure there is a need for revamping but there is never any details which proves what are the positives or the negatives.
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ReplyDeleteIn the last days there has been a strong support/outcry from all Europeans for the situation in Greece. The support, the healthy supporters, from whether it is from the “Yes’ers or No’ers”. It is really lovely. Also it makes me quite sentimental for a continent full of people full of concern, for us, even though we have been proven to be a failure nation, whether the blame is mainly on us or not. Actually some blame is on our creditors, but we are the mainly the blame, for our choices and manner of reform. Creditors only make suggestions. It is the government’s duty to work out the details. Reform, does not mean a program for a while and to go back to what you were doing before. Reform means self-acceptance change.
Have we proven that? No.
@ All Greeks that replied to me. Especially malaphar…
To these good people of Europe do we not owe to them and to ourselves more so (Greeks) to reform? There are advocates that reform means being molded into a copy, as I stated yesterday. But reform can also mean change by maintaining ones self-character. Just a newer version of yourself. We have the greatest minds of history and we seem to forget their teachings. Know thyself.
So I ask you. Knowing yourself, the continuation of burdening these wonderful people of Europe, with our own issues the solution? No it is not. Because although it hurts me to say that we will not be a part of the euro, which is my 2nd love after Greece, but it is the responsibility we must take on our own for these people of Europe. We owe to ourselves to solve our own problems. If they want to help us even after then, then it is most certainly welcome. There has been a great idiotic analysis of what yes and no means. It is bogus, just like the whole parliament of mp’s we have (with some few exceptions here and there). But it is a solution even if it came from our bogus government.
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ReplyDeleteYes means euro right? Yes mean an even more austere program (Complements of Schauble and Mrs. Christine with good reason), Yes means more recession, Yes means more new programs. Right now we are looking at a 3rd package. 30-50 million. Have we discussed our banks? They will new recapitalization. Let’s say this already failure system lead to another bailout after the 3rd bailout ends in 3 years. Aside from funds for humanitarian crisis, investment plans etc. In the next 3-4 years it would not be inaccurate to say that Greece will need another 100 bil euro. Weighed on all the citizens of the euro. And during and after these 3 years who in their right mind, aside from myself will invest in Greece? Even the elite of the world have said it, when Greeks start investing in their own country we will to. As I am a humble and frugal person, where I have my conscience clear, my responsibility to these good people, is not to further add to their everyday burden, with my/ours burdens. Why?
I downloaded the payment plan of Greece from the zerohedge yesterday up to 2057. To put it simply, the real orgy begins in 2020. And is why I am assuming that our creditors have been pushing us to build up positive debt ratios, as to weather the 37 year storm ahead of us. 37 years!!!!! Ask your selves my compatriots. Actually ask your young children what they would like to do when they are 40 years old when we are final balanced. We will achieve a debt ratio of 118% by 2030, or in 15 years from now which was the level of our debt ratio when GAPap got us into this “program.”
118% by 2030, based on projections made by the IMF whom projected that GDP of Greece from 2010 to 2013 would only contract by -5% meanwhile it contracted -25%. The whole recipe is wrong to our problem. Greek people have no clue what is truly going on. Most Greeks want to know the truth. When Manos was screaming in the 00’s that all pensions need to be one flat pension of 700-800 euro’s they ridiculed him. Mitsotakis stated in the 80’s for god’s sake that we will be bankrupt in the coming years. Simiti’s made a nice magic rabbit trick with JP morgan. That rabbit is now in our a**.
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ReplyDeleteHere I will interject Roger’s comment on his question to us. And reply to. Anonymous July 1, 2015 at 12:41 PM.
“Roger July 1, 2015 at 3:59 PM If I were you I would decide my vote on just one question: What result may better help Greeks to get a mental reboot into the right direction?
Honestly, I don't know it.”
As I wrote yesterday for a no vote…..
“…..But, I have the impression that if we do not break completely we cannot begin to rebuild. The "No" which I believe is right, not for saying no to Europe (which under normal circumstance is completely idiotic), but "no" to our bad selves. Europe will always be our scapegoat unfortunately in a "yes" vote. A "No" is a complete disaster and I am very comprehensive about that. Because after a "No" the old ideologies will linger on but for how long? When half the population will be in famine. We need to suffer before we rise to what we should be……”
I am not voting as if Kolokotronis was lifting up his sword before battle. I am voting a “No” because it is the responsible vote, to the citizens of the EU. (Regardless of how my vote is used by Tsipras) I have no care in the world what people will label a “no” vote, nor do I care if the government is a left or right. European official say the responsible vote is the “yes” vote. They know very well how a failed system Greece is and they adhere that “yes” vote is responsible? To whom. Most certainly not to their own people. They (the eurocrats) and the Greek government are equally useless. We have an obligation to those who stood next to us (the citizens of Europe) in our difficult time, to say no but thank you to them. Look in the mirror and solve our own problems before we can allow ourselves to be a part of the euro.
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ReplyDeleteThis article comment that I am writing now I will save and store. If a new deal is made along the lines of what has been discussed, new debt will be created and in 2 years the Greeks will be again crying, “we cannot accept austerity.” “Know thyself” More distrust from the Europeans. We need to work out our mess alone. Otherwise we will always find excuses.
And as so there are no false implications of what I am saying. I am very well aware of the two bad choices we have to pick from. I am very well aware that exiting the euro most probably, is by far the worst without question, for our country, but I know in the long term we will find our way and begin to rebuild. And BTW, even if we go to the drachma, the clientistic system will fail immediately because there will be no foreign funding to sustain it. We will have a complete collapse. This is the only way. (And I believe that Mr. Kastner and Xenos know that a Greek default most probably will not be orderly. You both know us well. But we need to know the truth however painful) How many times have I heard logical Greeks, I can say the majority, say we need to burn our system to the ground and rebuild it. Well here is the opportunity. Try not to pussy out. And the rhetoric of communist state, or being the new north Korea. It is all hogwash. There is no Greek living in Greece that will want anything along that line. Even the KKE. There every view real communist's left in Greece. They are the LMK and the MLK who represent 0,05% (together) of the population.
I was raised with the mindset that when you are at a cross road, to never choose the easy road because it will not take you higher and it can most certainly lead to a downhill. The hard road or no road. The hard road because you only become stronger. I have proven that on my 40 years.
One last question to all my compatriots. July is the 1st installment on your annual tax returns. Have any of you paid it? I did yesterday by ebanking. Guess I am the biggest “makaka” in Greece. Paying taxes is your duty regardless of if you agree with them or not.
Again sorry Mr. Kastner for the long thread.
Sincerely,
V
There is reason for hope. I just read that Varoufakis allegedly promised that there would be a deal with creditors on Monday after the referendum.
DeleteMr. Kastner,
DeleteProf. Varoufakis says here on video that if YES wins, he resigns.
http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=429625&catID=2
Already some SYRIZA MPs have broken party discipline in the past days and asked to cancel the referenfum. Today 3 ANEL MPs either ask the same or to vote YES. The goverment is looking at the spectre of defeat and at its plans that fail and so the first have began to jump ship, as to avoid being accused later.
Some had criticized Stournaras for being "too open". Stournaras did his job. His predecessor, Provopoulos, was harshly criticized, in that he conveyed privately to the party leaders the message of the BoG, without going public to warn the people of the situation. Nobody can do the same for Stournaras now. If things derail completely, the current goverment may end up in special tribunal.
It will be hard for Tsipras to stay on power after a YES, because he so strongly recommended a "NO" and he said on tv interview that he isn't an "all weather PM" and he is ready to leave his chair.
Honestly Mr. Kastner,
DeleteDo you believe him? Do you actually believe him? Do you believe any politician in th eu believes him? He is a terrible politician.
I am more hopeful, that Karamanlis will address the nation as i read earlier. That in there may be some hope. In 2009 in the pre-election period speaking on a debate panel right before Papandreos famous "we will find the money," said greece will need to change now and we will have rough times ahead of us. I believe Karamanlis was ready to do what was absolutely necessary for the country what was needed for 20 years up to that point.
If Karamanlis speech is to come to power and tell the people the truth with some kind of plan or preparations to a plan, then i will certainly rethink my vote.
I am tired of games and bullshit. I am also tired of Greek people that are not willing to change and make the respectable sacrifices that are necessary for our grandchildrens future, because as we are going we will burn the current youth generation.
Truth! Blunt Truth with realistic reform plans and debt restruction from the troika.
This needs to end.
BTW i voted for Karamanlis in 2009 knowingly he was speaking the real truth.
V
Dear V,
DeleteGood thoughts, thank you!
I want to comment only one point:
"To put it simply, the real orgy begins in 2020. And is why I am assuming that our creditors have been pushing us to build up positive debt ratios, as to weather the 37 year storm ahead of us. 37 years!!!!!"
My personal advice: Don't fret too much about debts and interests. IMHO the other tasks are more important, like „rebooting“ mentality, rebuilding country and economy and reaching balanced budgets, proving to "live within its own means".
Two points about debts and interests:
1. There is much time until 2020.
In the end of 2014 I had betted that the next negotiations would result in significant debt and/or interest cuts. Simply because the public opinion even in Germany had changed toward "Greek debts/interests are unbearable, Troika receipts don't work well, we need new approaches." And if the public opinion goes one direction, Merkels usually follows quite soon, as she want to get reelected. :-)
Unfortunately the Syriza-government started quite undiplomatically, resulting in a huge negative switch of public opinion. German people are partly like Greek people, we don't like to get blackmailed and humiliated, and we felt Syrizas habit of „Europe has to pay Greeks debts, and to sponsor Greek budget dificits until eternal future, otherwise we blow up EuroZone“ tried exactly that, it burned bridges.
But this attitude of defiance will dwindle again, at least with another Greek government with responsible politics, showing that Greece want and can live within its means. As soon as that happens, the public opinion toward Greece will improve, and more succesful debt renegotiations will come, cutting the unbearable part of Greek debts and/or interests. I am quite optimistic that will happen much before 2020, hence I would not fret too much about that long-future-interest payments. There are more urgent tasks.
2. Western Germany repaid debts from both world wars for several tens of years. The majority was paid until 1988, the last payments happened in 2010. That task teached German politics to orientate on trade balance surplusse as it had to earn enough money for repaing debts. Beeing able to carry a steady trade balance surplus is seen today as a major reason for Germanys strength, so I suppose the debts have strengthend Germany in the long run. May the same happen with future Greece?
@ V
DeleteObviously, I quoted Varoufakis with tongue in cheek. Someone (forget who) bettered him today and said the deal would be struck within one hour of the "no" vote. Who knows? The next quote may be that a deal will be struck one hour before the vote...
@V: I trusted Karamanlis before he entered office. He did nothing at all, and hardly spent any time at work. He was observed playing video games every afternoon in a secret apartment in central Athens, where he would go to relax every day.
DeleteND is as responsible as Pasok for the economic mess of Greece.
Hi Again,
DeleteWell the drama is unfolding every minute now. Literally. And as it seems the house of deck of cards is collapsing as we speak. From what i believe from last friday we would have a Yes 30 and NO 70 vote, i believe by this sunday it will flip 180 degrees.
Who is Lazard who is the advisor of Varoufakis and is Soros behind all of this? If i am not mistaken he also stated some time ago that the eu can do without Greece and Greece would be better off without the euro.
To Roger,
Thanks for the reply. Your confidence is warmly taken and needed because the physical headaches from stress, are taking their toll.
Yeah ok maybe i exagerate (Im greek remember) on the basis of long term debt, but still it is really frustrating. Like i have stated many times why was Samaras emptied by the Eurocrats when he obviously put the economy in better shape. Although he did not meet his pledges with the public sector (due to his old day clientistic characteristics), there were some good things done. Had the eurocrats at least stated, "ok we will address the debt issue on the x date..." we would not be in this mess.
I believe greeks are quite frugal by character. Sometimes in their mannerism to express happiness and love, money is no object to them and become spendthrifty. I ofcourse am the same way but different i how i handle my splurges. Splurges of mine come out the next months budget without delay. In the boom years greeks were out of control as money was free and is also why i blame bankers as well.
I believe Greece with, greeks whom have found themselves again, we can recover. But the bad blood must go. (Take this anyway you like.) Also Syriza did do something. It opened the eyes of Europe to our crisis. Long before the line on the atm's there were and still are line for food. Not to mention children eating from garbage. I have seen many ugly things in my life so far 1st hand, both in the usa and abroad, but the eyes of that child last Sunday are burned into my mind.
Some more confusion. The greek orthodox church or at least one cardinal so to say, is pro "No." Meanwhile 65 Army/Navy/Airforce Field Marshals are pro "Yes." Always thought chuch and army go hand in hand.
Im exhausted and by the time i finish writing this thread 10 new shocking news titles will pop up.
Sincerely,
V
Hi V,
Delete" Had the eurocrats at least stated, "ok we will address the debt issue on the x date..." we would not be in this mess."
I totally agree with you! Not at least the German government made a huge mistake by denying Greece early enough a fair perspective for a future with a bearable debt level. I give Angela Merkel a huge credit for this, IMHO it was and still is her biggest political failure in the last years.
Why did she act that way? Personally I suppose a mixture of three main reasons: Distrust toward Samaras, a strong resistance in her own party and the anxity of loosing many more votes to rightwing, eurosceptical parties like AfD.
Regarding Samaras: Around 2009 or 2010, when Papandreou told the facts about the eonomic failure of Greece and all the debacle grew, a responsible opposition leader IMHO would have to had offer help by building a common "national government" of the big parties, to ignore competition and make the best for the crisis-torn country. ND bitterly failed its responsibility. (I do not remind similar huge failings in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and so on).
The old ND prime minister Kostas Karamanlis, responsible for quite some mess, simply disappeared and never carried his part of the failure. And the new ND-leader Samaras was asked, even begged by many Europeans. not at least leaders of other conservative "brother"-parties like Merkel, to offer his support, but Samaras only pokered to leave Papandreou and PASOK carry the failure alone. By the way: While PASOK wrecked, ND is still quite alive, so Greek voters sadly rewarded this unresponsible behaviour.
As far as I know Merkel she don't forget such behaviour. Additionally, Samaras in his time as prime minister was seen in Europe as a guy who promises a lot to get money, but tricks to concentrate on the easier and avoid to fulfill the harder and more unpopular part of his promises, the really neccessary changes in the country. As far as I understand many Europeans were also quite apalled about the social unfairness of Samaras reforms.
So I suppose many Europeans, also Merkel, dwere sceptical if Samaras may work Greece to a good future. Many thought he would only react on strong pressure, less on brightning perspectives, and without pressure he would preserve the old and corrupt society.
I suppose the German government was also against further "gifts" toward Samaras in late 2014 as they calculated that a Syriza-government may get more difficult, but perhaps can better realize urgently required reforms, after they came down from their ideological trees. Only few expected them to remain on their trees and prefer to let Greece comitting suicide. (Did I talk about irresponsibility?)
Hence I suppose Europeans were not motivated to offer huge "presents" to Samaras like longtime perspectives of lower debts.
Bad failure, and still not understanding Greeks. Hence even in future Europeans are probably not able to mix a "perfect" medicine for Greece. Perhaps only Greeks can find ways how to cure Greece, so you have to find you best way. Inside or outside EuroLand, inside or outside Europe. I hope you may find a start like for Poland 25 years ago.
And perhaps you even get helping hands from you long-time enemy Turkey: http://www.todayszaman.com/business_turkey-discusses-helping-greece-pay-its-debts_392429.html
Best regards,
Roger
By the way, regarding this discussion in Turkey:http://www.todayszaman.com/business_turkey-discusses-helping-greece-pay-its-debts_392429.html
DeleteThe biggest EU-present for Germany is IMHO that, first time in history, we have no enemies on our borders but only partners, perhaps even friends. If the crisis should help Greece to grow a better partnership or even friendship with Turkey and perhaps even Macedonia, if the Greek and Turkish part of Cyprus may find a ways back to reunion, as Greek Cyprus now ended beeing the rich and arrogant part, Greece could perhaps harvest a similar present, what may have a much higher value than any money can buy, and be a big winner of the catharsic times. And you may save money for defense as well. :-)
I know, that would be quite an miracle. But sometimes miracles happen, even in the dire reality of international politics, as the German reunification or the German reconciliation with all its direct neighbors has proved. Could anyone have dreamed this up 70 years ago?
Sorry for my German bias. I suppose you will know enough other miracles as well, that proves not to fear dreaming.
So please dare to dream and to work for the dream. :-)
Best regards,
Roger
Thanks Roder,
DeleteIm working, Im working. So Hard So Tired but Im working.
Thanks for the support.
V
Roger,
DeleteBTW. I do have a dream. Actually many. But one dream is the rooms i have mentioned to you. I have good progress but who knows what will happen.
When i was a child, my grandfather took me to a place which is absolutely majestic. An arid place then is now flush with vegetation and beauty which calms the soul. when i came to the age of 12 i knew i would one day live in Greece. Now that i am older or as i grew. That place is being built. It is a place where i do not seek profit. Only to live and share with people. especially people who are in pain. I realized that this property i love is above me and self. It is for anybody who can take in the beauty, feel the calm and escape.
That is my dream. I would give you the gps coordinates but i would prefer people take in the first time without previously seeing.
Soon. I hope.
V
YES, he also promissed to step down if it is a yes vote. Game over, time to let the adults into the room.
ReplyDeleteThe same adults who designed the incompetent eurozone system? The same adults in the IMF who claimed that their "reforms" would not damage the Greek economy, but have actually led to 25% collapse in 5 years? The same adults who allowed banks to do as they like, leading to a global financial crisis, and the bailing out of banks in Germany and France with taxpayers' money (and claiming that they are helping Greece)?
DeleteWe can do without such useless and incompetent adults.