tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post8049830788663459129..comments2023-07-17T11:55:51.363+02:00Comments on ObservingGreece: Andreas Georgiou - A Never-Ending Storykleinguthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12491174042954678023noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-89223627947757215952017-08-17T11:09:57.472+02:002017-08-17T11:09:57.472+02:00Irrelevant!Irrelevant!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-67924995627456426942017-08-16T14:23:47.348+02:002017-08-16T14:23:47.348+02:00@Lennard
The village idiot of OG?@Lennard<br /><br />The village idiot of OG?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-39487451586966410512017-08-16T09:21:25.431+02:002017-08-16T09:21:25.431+02:00Uber intelligent, I guess.Uber intelligent, I guess.Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-92184079785770909272017-08-16T07:50:02.311+02:002017-08-16T07:50:02.311+02:00After having written 27 comments on the statistica...After having written 27 comments on the statistical issue within 12 days, Phoevos declare it irrelevant. I wonder what that makes him?<br />LennardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-66466609705545712302017-08-16T05:17:45.225+02:002017-08-16T05:17:45.225+02:00According to this piece, ND is after Georgiou:
ht...According to this piece, ND is after Georgiou:<br /><br />http://www.kathimerini.gr/922526/opinion/epikairothta/politikh/to-agka8i-ths-diw3hs-andrea-gewrgioyDean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-85197736592326645662017-08-16T04:09:17.494+02:002017-08-16T04:09:17.494+02:00What you guys don't uderstand is that even tod...What you guys don't uderstand is that even today there are serious problems with Greek statistics. So your thesis that Georgiou did something is false:<br /><br />http://www.euro2day.gr/news/economy/article/1556943/sovara-erothmata-gia-ta-greek-statistics.htmlDean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-74602097479981083002017-08-15T21:43:24.367+02:002017-08-15T21:43:24.367+02:00Ano @ 12:42
The statistics issue is irrelevant. C...Ano @ 12:42<br /><br />The statistics issue is irrelevant. Cyprus by any metric has worse statistics than Greece, yet the Cyprus economy is flying. Therefore your Eurostat statistics give you very little control over the economy which it is whatever it happens to be based on either soud or flawed economic policies. Not to mention that a 30% grey economy renders statistics totally useless as a tool of control.<br /><br />So I am not sure what your problem is except the obvious that you have no mastery over the subject you are trying to control. And you have invented a convenient story why you failed to have control by such pseudo-measures.Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-13339271812867281182017-08-15T21:28:23.221+02:002017-08-15T21:28:23.221+02:00No, EU we keep - it's very good for the free a...No, EU we keep - it's very good for the free and non-returnable money flow. Leaving the eurozone, yes. The only problem is how the totally "sovereign" government of Greece which has full juristiction inside its borders, could be persuaded to act as such when de facto is no longer a government and it could no longer make any such unBrussels decisions. That's the problem. The problem is how to convice the crazy king to defend its kingdom which was lost over a horse('s ass called Berlin).Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-11602919205732520052017-08-15T13:54:35.694+02:002017-08-15T13:54:35.694+02:00Oh you poor victim!
Does Greece have a parliament...Oh you poor victim!<br /><br />Does Greece have a parliament (legislative)? Does Greece have a government (executive)? Does Greece have a Supreme Court (judicial)? Does Greece have national borders within which its, and only its, jurisdiction is valid. Can Greeks elect their representative politicians at regular intervals?<br /><br />By joining the EU, Greece, like all the other members, gave up some of its political sovereignty (I believe up to 70% of national laws are nowadays prescribed by the EU; everywhere!). Greece also submitted itself to the European Court of Justice.<br /><br />By joining the Eurozone, Greece, like all the other members, gave up its financial sovereignty by foregoing the ability to print its own currency. That is really no different from your home state California, which can also not print US dollars. If and when California, or any other US state, becomes insolvent, the state needs to negotiate with its creditors. The US government cannot bail-out California (prohibited by the Constitution). California's creditors are private. Please believe me that those private creditors would be much tougher than any official Troika could ever be. <br /><br />If the above self-elected constraints on its sovereignty are too much to bear for Greeks, there is one very simple solution: submit an Article 50 letter to the EU, declaring your intent to leave the EU. Two years later, Greece is out of the EU and out of the Eurozone as well. Full sovereignty regained. Just as simple as that.kleinguthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12491174042954678023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-61627294183989304202017-08-15T12:42:22.133+02:002017-08-15T12:42:22.133+02:00I do. "A different set of guidelines" is...I do. "A different set of guidelines" is pure bull. When Greece joined the EU and the EZ they signed treaties that bound them to comply with the rules and regulations of Eurostat. If they did follow "a different set of guidelines" they simply cooked the books.<br />Sueing them? Where? In corrupt Greece. Come on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-56094434107186110272017-08-15T00:03:37.183+02:002017-08-15T00:03:37.183+02:00o.k. I understand. The destruction of Greece is no...o.k. I understand. The destruction of Greece is not over yet! So you need to rent Tsipras on a month to month basis? or you want a full 2 year lease with escalation clauses? Can we at least set the price or it's a freebie for good old buddy Troika again?Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-71523029595618482732017-08-14T23:59:28.793+02:002017-08-14T23:59:28.793+02:00What????? Greece is sovereign? When? Where? Who ma...What????? Greece is sovereign? When? Where? Who made it sovereign?Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-7013770587566374552017-08-14T19:58:47.440+02:002017-08-14T19:58:47.440+02:00PLEASE!!! Don't portray Greece as a country th...PLEASE!!! Don't portray Greece as a country that has no sovereign will on is own. A country which must be given a government by foreigners; which must be given an economic plan by foreigners; whose institutions must be reformed by foreigners; etc. Do you think there would be any Greek shipping tycoons today if they all shared your mindset? kleinguthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12491174042954678023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-76318990443220531532017-08-14T10:42:46.266+02:002017-08-14T10:42:46.266+02:00But Phoevos, we still need Tsipras for the next 4 ...But Phoevos, we still need Tsipras for the next 4 reviews before fall of 2018. And, I can well understand your anger when someone affronts rudimentary intelligence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-61110323046902011082017-08-14T00:58:55.364+02:002017-08-14T00:58:55.364+02:00I guess the Greek Miister of tourism is happy at t...I guess the Greek Miister of tourism is happy at the moment:<br /><br />http://www.tornosnews.gr/en/tornos/luxury/26706-report-up-to-e40-000-for-5-nights-in-greek-5-star-hotels-in-august.htmlDean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-11748760598487605172017-08-13T20:52:47.508+02:002017-08-13T20:52:47.508+02:00But Kleingut:
I am sorry brother, but why did you...But Kleingut:<br /><br />I am sorry brother, but why did your creditors committee choose Syriza for the job? How can you expect Syriza to reform institutions when by definition Syriza was never part and always outside of such institutions? Not to mention Syriza's extreme hostility to all institutions (both foreign and domestic).<br /><br />Tsakalotos is out the door now; who the Troika will replace him with to defend the creditors committee interests? Who the heck understands finances formthe Syriza crowd? Chouliarakis who according to Varoufakis is just pure slime?<br /><br />And for as long as Syriza remains in power what "reform institutions" are we talking about? These guys are total outsiders and then some. Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-59097128315564305862017-08-13T20:15:07.003+02:002017-08-13T20:15:07.003+02:00Have I ever suggested that the Troika ever 're...Have I ever suggested that the Troika ever 'reformed' a Greek institution? Never! The Troika was/is a creditors' committee defending the interests of the creditors (sometimes perhaps disguised as 'help for Greece'). The Troika is NOT a nation-builder.<br /><br />Only Greece can reform its institutions, no one else can do it for them. Others can offer assistance, like I thought the EU Task Force for Greece was the best assistance Greece could ever have been offered. Regrettably, Greece did not use that Task Force to reform its institutions. Instead, it sent the Task Force away.<br /><br />So yes, I would see it the same way as you do: there has been no material 'reform' of Greek institutions since 2010.kleinguthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12491174042954678023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-6828912451694147582017-08-13T19:50:43.690+02:002017-08-13T19:50:43.690+02:00Who says that they cooked the books?
The previous...Who says that they cooked the books?<br /><br />The previous ELSTAT chiefs were simply following a different set of guidelines. The IMF wanted a different approach in accounting.One might say that Georgiu was reckless in his abrupt application of a new system with zero integration to the existing system.<br /><br />If you have evidence of wrong doing then feel free to sue them.Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-46217702601778267332017-08-13T03:01:57.565+02:002017-08-13T03:01:57.565+02:00What about the predecessors of Georgiou as heads o...What about the predecessors of Georgiou as heads of ELSTAT? The ones that had cooked the books for decades. Any trials or convictions?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-50490261820753915382017-08-12T18:40:37.136+02:002017-08-12T18:40:37.136+02:00Kleingut:
You are purposely misrepresenting my po...Kleingut:<br /><br />You are purposely misrepresenting my position when in fact you should know it better after countless exchanges.<br /><br />I am not against reforms. I have stated numerous times that it's an ancient Greek(aka Mycenean) trait to perfect and improve own tools in seeking mastery. Unfortunately in the modern world, only the Japanese practice such Greek trait correctly and as it happens Japan is half a world away, in the farthest possible distance from Greece and without any particular influence on the Greeks who prefer the Chinese instead as their natural allies.<br /><br />The problem for modern Greece is that we cohabitate the same geographical area with a bunch of European morons who don't have a clue what they are talking about.<br /><br />So, your friends, the European clowns, come to Greece on an overt mission to save their flawed euro currency while pretending to introduce beneficial reforms to Greece, which is a total lie and an affront to rudimentary intelligence.<br /><br />Your friends, the euromorons and the euroidiots, do not understand the Greek economy and therefore are unsuited to introduce anything of value to Greece.<br /><br />Instead of realizing how out of your depth you are in Greek matters, your Berlin overlords have decided to cooperate with a naive and amateurish leftist government which complements you fine in all fields of ignorance known to man.<br /><br />Then on top of it all, you want us to take you seriously when you ask the silly question of us joining forces with you in wrecking our own economy.<br /><br />Now tell me what sort of logic is this?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-17452985570725222012017-08-12T18:12:01.859+02:002017-08-12T18:12:01.859+02:00Kleingut:
I see you have a fondness for circular ...Kleingut:<br /><br />I see you have a fondness for circular arguments. So which precisely Greek institutions did the uber incompetent Troika reform?<br /><br />Because all the stupid Troika did, instead of introducig beneficial reforms which could be used in a good way, was to superimpose its own falsehoods as the "supposed truth".<br /><br />Name me one Greek institution that Troika actually reformed for the better. Just one.(and stay away from naming ELSTAT if you don't want to get an F for your answer).Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-56147507024743041622017-08-12T18:01:46.653+02:002017-08-12T18:01:46.653+02:00Kleingut:
I see you have a tenderness for circula...Kleingut:<br /><br />I see you have a tenderness for circular arguments. So which precisely Greek institutions did the uber incompetent Troika reform?<br /><br />Because all the stupid Troika did, instead of introducig beneficial reforms which could be used in a good way, was to superimpose its own falsehoods as the "supposed truth".<br /><br />Name me one Greek institution that Troika actually reformed for the better. Just one.(and stay away from naming ELSTAT if you don't want to get an F for your answer).Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-74667567716830217292017-08-12T11:25:45.605+02:002017-08-12T11:25:45.605+02:00I am amazed that someone like you, who would mostl...I am amazed that someone like you, who would mostly blame others for Greece's travails, would have, from time to time, true attacks of revelation. The way you describe ELSTAT, it is symptomatic for Greek institutions. In fact, I would argue that the major deficiency of Greek society are the weakness and inadequacy of most of its institutions. There was a book out a few years ago, "Why nations fail". A Greek was a co-author. Their argument was essentially that the difference between successful and failing nations was the quality and adequacy of its institutions. kleinguthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12491174042954678023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-89713725877395632112017-08-11T14:58:12.752+02:002017-08-11T14:58:12.752+02:00ELSTAT was and still remains a mickey mouse agency...ELSTAT was and still remains a mickey mouse agency pre-Georgiou and post-Georgiou.<br /><br />To date, it's a tool of ambush politics rather than true statistics.<br /><br />The most recent show of its incredible incompetence are the so-called "flash estimates" on the Greek economy. The last blunder back in May of this year reported the Greek economy in Q1 to be in recession (a convenient argument in the hands of Troika for further austerity) while in reality the final numbers showed the exact opposite. Last week, quietly while no one was watching, ELSTAT announced that they will no longer be issuing "flash estimates" since now we all know how horrible they are in what they do and with an equally horrible record to match.<br /><br />Therefore, this false narrative that somehow Georgiou came in and reshaped ELSTAT is of course deeply untrue and misleading. Georgiou did nothing to reform ELSTAT except take a set of unchecked numbers given to him by Troika and make these numbers the basis for his "improved" (but as it turns out false narrative) on the Greek economy.<br /><br />As far as I am concerned the only thing Georgiou did was to employ a new method of accounting for and reporting petroleum products which as if by miracle gave Greece an exporting boost (to fit the Troika narrative that the Troika regime was beneficial to Greece and here are the new statistics to prove it).<br /><br />Therefore Georgiou was neither a reformer nor a better (reliable) statistician as most of you bleeding European hearts are trying to portray him as such.<br /><br />He was a naked Troika stooge and of course Troika wants all its stooges to be given immunity for obvious reasons.<br /><br />Therefore I fail to see what your fascination is with this fairly incompetent statistician who failed to produce anything of value to Greece except embeding the Troika "framework" as the truth (which "truth" happens to be an uber falsehood indeed).<br /><br /><br /><br />And I disagree with Kleingut's definition of intelligence as "no more rooms for arguments" because the omissions in this case are so glaring that by definition it's impossible not to have arguments in this whitewash case of supposedly reformed Greek statistics. Dean Plassarashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13405528205926966179noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5882645467378797266.post-43997288132885196312017-08-11T13:06:12.211+02:002017-08-11T13:06:12.211+02:00I am not so sure that it is only Greeks who don...I am not so sure that it is only Greeks who don't accept "the truth and nothing but the truth". Read the below article. One can always make a credible case for any side. That's why I am suggesting in this case that trading arguments is not the smart way. The smart way would be to simply say that there is no room for arguments.<br /><br />http://worldtradelaw.typepad.com/ielpblog/2017/08/the-martyrdom-of-statistician-andreas-georgiou-another-pretext-for-greece-bashing-.htmlkleinguthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12491174042954678023noreply@blogger.com